Episode Transcript
[00:00:12] Thank you.
[00:00:15] Thank you so very much. On the back of what Ian has just said, when was the most recent time that you were pressurized or coerced or intimidated to try and do something that goes against your conscience or goes against your faith?
[00:00:35] Now, however it went, whether you stood up to that pressure or maybe you fell, it was probably really, really uncomfortable.
[00:00:46] What we're going to look at today is the story of Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego. Now, if you've been in church circles since childhood, you will know this story pretty well.
[00:00:57] The summary is they are challenged, intimidated, pressurised, on pain of death to renounce their faith. They don't do it. They make a stand and God rescues them.
[00:01:12] A very simple lesson.
[00:01:15] We're going to look at that story again today, but I'm going to try and prove that it's far more complicated than that.
[00:01:22] We're going to go to some dark places. We're going to talk about one particular topic that is controversial and arises strong feelings in people.
[00:01:33] Are we ready?
[00:01:36] Who am I thinking of?
[00:01:38] There is a man who is a very strong leader.
[00:01:43] He rules a prosperous state and commands a powerful army. He's not scared to use it.
[00:01:51] He has multiplied the wealth in which he was born into, and he's achieved the highest position in his land. But that's not enough. He wants to be worshipped. Who am I thinking of? Do not call out your answers.
[00:02:06] We will end up in a lot of trouble.
[00:02:12] Sadly, there are many, many contenders, many candidates for that throughout all of history, and some of them go way beyond just wanting to be worshipped. They're so scared of losing their power, they will quite happily persecute their populations, murder their opponents and oppress their people.
[00:02:34] Violence, and a threat of violence doesn't trouble their conscience.
[00:02:40] And King Nebuchadnezzar was the person I was thinking of.
[00:02:45] He ruled one of the greatest empires of his day, and he conquered most of that territory himself.
[00:02:51] But he wants more.
[00:02:53] He wants to be worshipped.
[00:02:56] So I'm going to read the story of Meshech, Shadrach and Abednego, and then we're going to look at it. It may be a slightly different way than we're used to. We've got five slides, and it's Daniel, Chapter three. If you're following along, you're going to have to be fleet of foot because I've paraphrased a bit here and there to get a through line.
[00:03:14] So let's start here.
[00:03:17] King Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold.
[00:03:21] Now, we're not told what the image was. We're not told if it's an image of him because he wants to be worshipped, or an image of his God or an obelisk or anything like that. Because this story isn't my God versus your God.
[00:03:34] It's actually the God of the Bible versus societies that are godless, societies that have no thought for what the God of the universe would have us do as human beings, societies that don't care about love the Lord your God with all your strength, with all your soul, with all your might, societies that don't care about love, your neighbors, yourself, societies that actually end up just worshipping themselves and their power and their military power in particular. So he made an image of gold and we're not told what it is.
[00:04:11] Then he summoned the satraps, prefects, governors, advisors, treasurers, judges, magistrates, and all other provincial officials to come to the dedication of the image that he had set up.
[00:04:26] Now, if you are an evil dictator, you cannot oppress your population single handedly. You're going to need some help.
[00:04:35] That's on page seven of the dictator's handbook.
[00:04:39] And the way you oppress your population is you don't intimidate them all because you haven't got time to do that. You do it through the elites.
[00:04:48] So if you can threaten your elites, if you can intimidate your elites, if you can make them fearful of death, then they will do the oppression for you. So that's why he called them all together.
[00:05:01] Now, some of you might know that I think it was in the 70s, there was a really chilling conference that happened in Iraq.
[00:05:08] Saddam Hussein had just become the leader of that country. He just achieved the top position and he wanted to get rid of everybody who was disloyal to him.
[00:05:18] So he called a conference.
[00:05:20] And then very calmly from the stage, he just started calling people out.
[00:05:25] Seats became empty and they just walked out, these men and shot.
[00:05:31] An evil empire trying to control its whole empire through fear it instills in the elites.
[00:05:41] Then the herald loudly proclaimed, nations and people of every language. They weren't all there, it was just the elites. This is what you are commanded to do.
[00:05:50] As soon as you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, you must fall down and worship the image of gold.
[00:06:02] Whoever does not do this will immediately be thrown into, into a blazing furnace. So he intimidates them with fear.
[00:06:10] Because what he's saying is basically you've got to worship this image, which I am the King. So you're basically worshipping me, and we're worshipping the States.
[00:06:23] I thought it'd be interesting to see what this image looks like. Okay, so we're not told what the image is, but we are told its dimensions.
[00:06:30] And I think that is quite surprising. It. It's not even as big as Nelson's column.
[00:06:37] And I think the Bible is poking a little bit of fun here.
[00:06:41] King Nebuchadnezzar thinks he's so powerful. We're going to see later on, he actually threatens Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego as if he's God himself.
[00:06:50] And yet this thing he set up, it's not one of the eight wonders of the world. It's nothing. And it's something we need to keep in mind as we consider these kingdoms.
[00:07:01] Some astrologers come forward.
[00:07:04] They said to the king, may the king live forever. That's the way you got to treat this guy.
[00:07:10] There are some Jews whom you have set over the affairs of the province of Babylon. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. And then they bring three charges. They pay no attention to your majesty.
[00:07:23] They neither serve your gods nor. Nor worship the image of gold you've set up. Now, these astrologers are very, very jealous of Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego because they're all in the same sort of job. They're all advising the king. And Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego give very, very good advice.
[00:07:42] We saw from last week, Daniel, who was one of that crew, was very good at interpreting dreams, which is the way they did things back then. So they're jealous.
[00:07:51] And in this society, as we've said, violence, murder, not a problem. If you want to get ahead of your political opponents, to use a South London expression, you grasp them up.
[00:08:07] Furious with rage, Nebuchadnezzar summoned them, and he said to them, is it true, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or. Or worship the image of gold that I have set up? He's giving them a chance.
[00:08:24] There's pressure here. There's intimidation. But there's a chance.
[00:08:29] If you are ready to fall down and worship the image I have made. Very good.
[00:08:34] But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace.
[00:08:40] Then what God will be able to rescue you from my hand?
[00:08:45] He's saying he's bigger than God. Who's going to rescue you from my hand?
[00:08:49] I'm the one in charge here.
[00:08:54] Shadrach, Meshach, And Abednego replied to him, king Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter.
[00:09:03] This is the most polite rebellion ever.
[00:09:08] If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us from your majesty's hand. So there are pose in him.
[00:09:18] But even if he does not, we want you to know, your majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of God you've set up.
[00:09:28] Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with them. He had real anger management issues.
[00:09:36] So. So these men wearing their robes now, other translations say in their hats and their turbans. So there's a bit of a fashion show here, which is important.
[00:09:44] Wearing their robes were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace because the king's order was urgent and the furnace overheated.
[00:09:53] The flame of the fire killed those men who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego again.
[00:10:00] The king doesn't care if he's going to lose some of his troops because his pride is has been hurt.
[00:10:08] King Nebuchadnezzar leapt to his feet in amazement and asked his advisors, weren't there three men that were tied up and we threw into the fire?
[00:10:16] He said, look, I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed. And the fourth looks like a son of the gods, a divine being. We believe that was Jesus himself before he came to Bethlehem.
[00:10:31] Nebuchadnezzar then approached the opening of the blazing furnace and shouted, shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, servants of the most high God, come out. Come here.
[00:10:42] They came out of the fire and the satraps, prefects, governors and royal advisors crowded around them.
[00:10:49] They saw that the fire had not harmed their bodies, nor was a hair of their head singed. Their robes were not scorched. There was no smell of fire on them.
[00:11:00] Last slide. Then Nebuchadnezzar said, praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who sent his angel and rescued his servants.
[00:11:10] They trusted him and they defied the king's command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any other God except their own God.
[00:11:20] Therefore, I decree that the people of any nation or language, and who say anything against the house of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other God can save in this way. Then the king promoted them in the Province of Babylon.
[00:11:40] And notice this, at the end, Nebuchadnezzar is still trying to be in charge.
[00:11:47] He's like a Duracell bunning outside a nuclear power station, saying, I'm the one who's in charge here.
[00:11:54] And yet God has just opposed him and done an amazing miracle.
[00:12:00] So I'm just going to step through this and I'm going to show this depth in three different ways. Okay? Number one, it's not a children's story.
[00:12:08] It's incredibly dark. We've already started to see some of that society, how it loves murder.
[00:12:15] It's not an us and them story.
[00:12:17] We can think about it. There's some nice Christians in this story. There's an evil king. The nice Christians make a stand. The evil king has to back down. It's actually far more complicated than that.
[00:12:28] And it's not a you will never be harmed story.
[00:12:33] It doesn't say that.
[00:12:41] What the story is essentially saying here is there's an opposition between God, the God of the Bible, and societies that set themselves up against God, because those societies that set themselves up intentionally or unintentionally, will ultimately become dehumanizing.
[00:12:58] Lord Acton, a 19th century British historian, you probably know this one. He said, power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And that's what happens with dictators and what happens with societies. What's quite awkward is that Lord Acton was also writing about some church bishops. But to quote my friend Ian, we won't go there.
[00:13:24] The society that is godless, the society that has no fear of the God of the universe, ends up being just built on fear.
[00:13:37] Now, in September 2025, two of the most powerful leaders of the world right now visited each other. One went to visit the other one for a state visit.
[00:13:47] And they went to one of those military parades, you know, where the troops march down and the missiles go down and the tanks go across and there's a flypast.
[00:13:57] And each of these men is immensely powerful. They're immensely wealthy.
[00:14:02] They literally command hundreds of thousands of men in the army, and they have nuclear weapons.
[00:14:10] And the microphone picked up what they were saying to each other. As all of this kit was going by.
[00:14:16] One of them said biotechnology is continuously developing.
[00:14:20] And the other one said, yes, human organs can be continuously transplanted. I mean, that's dark.
[00:14:28] Maybe the longer you live, the younger you can become, and you can even become immortal.
[00:14:37] I found it really comforting.
[00:14:39] They're scared of death.
[00:14:41] They're scared of death.
[00:14:43] They maybe know at some deep point that they're going to have to give an account to God one day, as we all do.
[00:14:49] All dictators and the societies that come from those dictators and the societies that uphold those dictators are built on fear.
[00:14:59] The gold image, as we've seen, is actually very small by today's standards. Very small by today's standards.
[00:15:07] But look at this as well.
[00:15:10] Nebuchadnezzar says, what God can save you from my hand?
[00:15:15] And is a future echo of what's going to happen when Jesus stands before Pilate and Pilate says to him, don't you realize I have power either to free you or crucify you?
[00:15:29] And Jesus answered, you would have no power over me if it was not given to you from above. This is hundreds of years later and there's still this same fallacy in the society thinking they're more powerful than God.
[00:15:44] And it's a mystery that God does allow power to go to men. And it's normally dictator men to be able to oppress people like this. But the power comes from God and they will have to give an account, as we will, too.
[00:16:00] Secondly, it's not a them and us story.
[00:16:05] Every time we say Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego, we're getting their names wrong.
[00:16:11] Do people get your names wrong?
[00:16:13] Yeah, some more than others.
[00:16:16] My name is Atelio and people get that wrong a lot.
[00:16:20] I work in it.
[00:16:21] A few years ago, we appointed a digital marketing manager and she needed stuff from it.
[00:16:29] So it was right that I have a meeting with her.
[00:16:31] It was about three weeks before I actually met her. Going to the meeting room soon, she meets me. She laughs. I say, I'm so sorry if I said something amusing.
[00:16:42] And she said, no, it's just I've been at all these meetings and I've said I needed all this tech, and they say, you need a Tilio for that.
[00:16:48] I said, well, that's very flattering, but why are you laughing? She said, I thought you were a bit of software.
[00:16:59] Very, very rude.
[00:17:03] I mentioned it to my family. They didn't disagree.
[00:17:09] Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego. Their real names are Haniah, Mishael and Azariah. They are trafficked people.
[00:17:18] They've been taken from the country they were born into, the culture they grew up in, the religion that they followed, and they were trafficked into the Babylonian empire. They're not where they're supposed to be, but they're all mixed up in the culture.
[00:17:31] They've got Babylonian names, they're wearing Babylonian clothes. That's why it's mentioned in the reading. And they've got Babylonian government jobs.
[00:17:43] They've lived in this place for a while until Nebuchadnezzar came up with his idiotic idea. So the question is, why choose this battle?
[00:17:53] Why not right at the beginning, say, we're not going to be called by Babylonian names?
[00:17:58] I mean, they probably would have been executed or maybe enslaved in another way, but they were prepared for that.
[00:18:05] Why didn't they say, we're not going to take the Babylonian jobs again? They would have been enslaved in another way. Why this battle now? All of us have to navigate in society, don't we, with our conscience and our faith. The different things come against us, different things challenge us. And it's tricky, isn't it, navigating all of that stuff. Why did they draw the line here?
[00:18:31] Why didn't Shadrach say to the other two, look, come on, the king's having one of his funny turns.
[00:18:37] When we hear the desire, the lyre and all the rest of it, why don't we just fall down and worship it? God knows we doesn't mean it. It'll be fine.
[00:18:45] Why did they draw the line here?
[00:18:50] Or maybe they were thinking of their ancestors who did start to worship other gods.
[00:18:57] And as their ancestors moved away worshipping those other gods, they started to forget God's standards for society.
[00:19:05] Justice, mercy, looking after the poor, loving the Lord your God with all your might and all your strength as number one and other people as yourself. And they realized maybe that as they started to worship those other gods, God judged the nation. And that's why they were in that mess in the first place.
[00:19:23] We all have to work with wisdom about the different ways we are going to make a stand.
[00:19:31] They did it politely and with respect.
[00:19:39] Now, there's another line here, and I'm slowing down a bit because this is quite, quite difficult.
[00:19:48] When we think about this story, we think, okay, there's the people of God and there's the society with its idols, and we mustn't worship the idols of society. So we think about fierce, selfish individualism. Mustn't worship that. Mustn't worship money.
[00:20:04] Mustn't worship sex, Mustn't worship power, okay? And we need to be reminded of that because the human heart bends that way.
[00:20:12] But there's another idol hiding in this story.
[00:20:16] And this idol is really difficult to talk about because it makes people uncomfortable, it arouses strong emotions and maybe even makes people angry.
[00:20:28] To be honest, I'd much rather talk about the idol of sex, at least that's just uncomfortable.
[00:20:36] Just last September, there was a protest down on the coast against people coming in on boats.
[00:20:44] And it was an activist who has very aggressive, very angry views about who should be allowed to live in this country.
[00:20:53] And he jumped into the water and he got a knife, which he was carrying, and he slashed one of those small boats.
[00:20:59] There was no one in that boat apart from a rescue worker.
[00:21:03] And the police arrested him on suspicion of criminal damage with intent to endanger life and endangering the safety of the vessel.
[00:21:12] Now, here's what I find most chilling.
[00:21:15] That man has an online presence and one of his hashtags is Christisking.
[00:21:22] Now, there are many, many people who have aggressive, maybe even violent political views like that who have Christ is King as their hashtag.
[00:21:33] Some say they've been baptized and become Christians. Now, it's not for us to judge if that's true or not. Okay, that's between them and God. That's between them and God.
[00:21:44] But how do we navigate these difficult views maybe coming from people like that?
[00:21:54] See Nebuchadnezzar, this is where this idol is hiding.
[00:21:58] He makes a decree protecting the God of Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego. He's basically saying, this God is really, really powerful. I've noticed that. I'm going to bring him into my narrative.
[00:22:11] I'm still in charge.
[00:22:13] And this God thing, I'm just going to bring him in to support what I believe.
[00:22:18] So how do we navigate that? Well, thankfully, Jesus made it quite easy. Matthew 7. Beware of false prophets.
[00:22:26] You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act.
[00:22:30] A good tree produces good fruit and a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[00:22:38] A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
[00:22:44] Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.
[00:22:52] This is very difficult stuff to talk about, but the idol of Nebuchadnezzar is to make the society its values so overwhelming that Christianity just has to fit in.
[00:23:09] It's not the other way around, where we start with our faith. Many societies have considered themselves Christian, but did that not stop the Nazis coming to power? It didn't stop colonialism. It didn't stop the slave trade.
[00:23:25] Professor Tina Beatty, who's a theologian, she said the relationship between religion and nationalism is a sensitive and political issue.
[00:23:34] Yes, it is.
[00:23:36] Christianity has often been seduced by the idea of a God who favours one particular race or nation.
[00:23:44] The rise of the European empires went hand in hand with a worldview that privileged white European Christians.
[00:23:54] Jesus makes it clear that his followers will not be recognized by noisy religious rhetoric nor by our standing in society, but the attentiveness to the poor and to the homeless and the hospitality to strangers and care for the sick and those in prison.
[00:24:10] St. Paul reminds us Christians are citizens on a journey to a new heaven and a new earth and we should not fall to the ever present idolatry of false gods of society.
[00:24:26] Now, I'm not saying that the Bible tells us what political party to follow. I'm not saying that the Bible has a particular way of thinking about these things. I'm just saying the sin and the idol of Nebuchadnezzar is to make that.
[00:24:39] It's called Christian nationalism. It doesn't just occur here, it occurs all over the world. And there's other sort of theocratic nationalisms as well.
[00:24:48] It's to make that the main thing, the society the main thing, and tuck our faith in underneath.
[00:24:54] Not easy to navigate, but navigate it we must.
[00:25:00] Lastly then, it's not a you will never be harmed story.
[00:25:05] Now if we think that this story just says we will always be protected when we make a stand, it's really insulting to the people Ian and Debs go to visit, isn't it? What are we saying? That they're not real Christians because they're being persecuted?
[00:25:20] And the key bit here is not the yellow bit. The God we serve is able to deliver us from it and he will deliver us. It's the red bit. But even if he does not, even if he does not, it calls to mind Job. You know, when Job says, though he slay me, I will still have my hope in him.
[00:25:39] And so we can't get into this idea of this story just saying to us, well, we're always going to be protected because when we're not protected and when the trouble comes, we'll lose our faith because it'll just be like a transactional thing. As long as God does good things for me, I'll do good things for Him. Note even if he does not.
[00:26:00] And it's interesting to think about the fourth person, Jesus there in the furnace. Why did he not stop the whole thing at the beginning? Why did he not just stop the astrologers saying what they did? He didn't. Why did he not stop the trial that must have been really anxious for Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego to be at that trial with the king? Why didn't he stop them being thrown in?
[00:26:22] We don't know. But God was with them throughout. And that's the promise that comes to us. He is with us in our suffering.
[00:26:32] Just want to finish by looking at this image. Now, I don't know if any of you seen this image before.
[00:26:38] You can probably all work out what it is.
[00:26:42] Okay. It's actually found in the catacombs in Rome.
[00:26:46] And it was about 200 years after the resurrection of Jesus that the Christians who hide in there drew this up. Okay. It's actually called the Priscilla Catacombs. I don't know if Priscilla's with us today, but the Priscilla catacombs.
[00:27:00] Hello. There you are. You should know these are your catacombs.
[00:27:06] Now you can see there they are, Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego. Their hands are raised because they're praying. You can't see the fourth person, but you can just about make out the bird there by the damage there. That's the Holy Spirit.
[00:27:20] So the Christians, 200 years after the resurrection, many, many hundred years after Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego are reinterpreting this story to help them in their own persecution.
[00:27:31] Because many will go on to. To be violently persecuted by the Roman state. Many will die. God will rescue some of them, but many will die. And this image is giving them fortitude and strength to keep going even though they might die. And they know that if they die, they're going to enjoy eternal life with God. It's been reinterpreted for them. And for that, this is the image that we really need to keep in mind when we have our challenges.
[00:28:08] No guarantee that we're going to be saved physically, but that we will be saved going into the future, into a new kingdom.
[00:28:18] So let me just summarize, and I'm just going to pray.
[00:28:21] The fiery furnace stories are challenged to stand for our faith with wisdom and gentleness.
[00:28:27] Not to retreat from society, but to recognize we are part of society and can do much to redeem it.
[00:28:34] God will do many rescue miracles, but he does not promise that he will always keep us from harm.
[00:28:41] He promises something much greater, that all inhumane kingdoms, all inhumane empires and societies will one day be gone. And we will live forever in peace.
[00:28:52] And we will worship in a new kingdom with the fourth person in that fire.
[00:28:57] Amen.
[00:28:59] Let's just finish. I'm going to just finish in prayer before Mary comes back up.
[00:29:05] Lord, when the test comes, we want to be found, to be strong, and not just strong through some human courage, but by your Holy Spirit.
[00:29:15] Lord, when the difficulties come in society and we're challenged in our conscience. Challenged about how to follow you. Lord, we want wisdom and we want gentleness, Lord God, but Lord, we want to be like the first century Christians who did this picture, who did stand up after under the persecution. Lord, I want to thank you that because of their faith we're all here today because the gospel got preached.
[00:29:44] Amen.
[00:29:45] Amen.
